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	<title>Comments on: Erik Schwiebert on localized versions of Microsoft Office for Mac OS X</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/</link>
	<description>Notes from an unfinished world…</description>
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		<title>By: Schwieb</title>
		<link>http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/comment-page-1/#comment-6214</link>
		<dc:creator>Schwieb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 06:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/#comment-6214</guid>
		<description>Sorry to find you so frustrated, Pierre.  I&#039;ve posted a reply on my blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to find you so frustrated, Pierre.  I&#8217;ve posted a reply on my blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Schwieb &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Bugs stink! Yeah Yeah!</title>
		<link>http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/comment-page-1/#comment-6212</link>
		<dc:creator>Schwieb &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Bugs stink! Yeah Yeah!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 06:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/#comment-6212</guid>
		<description>[...] Pierre Igot writes what I must politely describe as an impassioned discourse about my description of pseudo-localization, multi-lingual bundles in OS X, and MacBU testing. Pierre makes some good points, totally misses the idea of pseudo-loc in another, and generally castigates the MacBU for failing to fix a particular bug that is very important in French typography. He then invited me to comment. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Pierre Igot writes what I must politely describe as an impassioned discourse about my description of pseudo-localization, multi-lingual bundles in OS X, and MacBU testing. Pierre makes some good points, totally misses the idea of pseudo-loc in another, and generally castigates the MacBU for failing to fix a particular bug that is very important in French typography. He then invited me to comment. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pierre Igot</title>
		<link>http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/comment-page-1/#comment-6211</link>
		<dc:creator>Pierre Igot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:25:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/#comment-6211</guid>
		<description>Yes, of course, if one only uses TrueType fonts, the problem does not occur. But I don&#039;t consider this an acceptable workaround. Many people work with a collection of fonts that they have accumulated over the years and have developed an attachment to certain fonts, no matter how &quot;old&quot; and obsolete the underlying technology of these fonts is and how incomplete their character set is. I, for example, have an invoice template that I designed a long time ago and that uses a particular Postscript font. I don&#039;t really fancy changing the font of the template, simply because it&#039;s part of my visual identity. So now I have to live with this stupid bug. 

I find it hard to believe that there aren&#039;t still many people out there who want to continue using certain Type 1 fonts. I think the problem here is that it&#039;s a combination of two factors: using Type 1 fonts [strong]and[/strong] using the non-breaking space. Since the non-breaking space is mostly used by non-U.S. people, it makes the bug less important in the eyes of Microsoft.

Again, I do not know whether this bug has been fixed in the French version of Word 2004. It&#039;s quite possible that it has been fixed. But why they haven&#039;t also fixed it in the English version is beyond me, especially after all this time.

To be entirely fair, Apple&#039;s own Pages also has a somewhat similar problem with &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.betalogue.com/2005/02/07/pages-problem-with-non-breaking-space-line-spacing-and-type-1-fonts/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;certain Type 1 fonts&lt;/a&gt;. Only the symptoms in Pages are not as obvious, and they seem to only affect a subset of the category of Type 1 fonts (those that do not include a non-breaking space in their char set, I think). But it&#039;s nearly as shameful for Apple as it is for Microsoft, especially since the symptoms have to do with line spacing and Apple has designed Pages as a page layout application. 

Given that the problem also affects Pages in some way, I wouldn&#039;t be surprised if it were linked to an underlying cause in Mac OS X, and Microsoft just couldn&#039;t be bothered to pressurize Apple to fix it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, of course, if one only uses TrueType fonts, the problem does not occur. But I don&#8217;t consider this an acceptable workaround. Many people work with a collection of fonts that they have accumulated over the years and have developed an attachment to certain fonts, no matter how &#8220;old&#8221; and obsolete the underlying technology of these fonts is and how incomplete their character set is. I, for example, have an invoice template that I designed a long time ago and that uses a particular Postscript font. I don&#8217;t really fancy changing the font of the template, simply because it&#8217;s part of my visual identity. So now I have to live with this stupid bug. </p>
<p>I find it hard to believe that there aren&#8217;t still many people out there who want to continue using certain Type 1 fonts. I think the problem here is that it&#8217;s a combination of two factors: using Type 1 fonts [strong]and[/strong] using the non-breaking space. Since the non-breaking space is mostly used by non-U.S. people, it makes the bug less important in the eyes of Microsoft.</p>
<p>Again, I do not know whether this bug has been fixed in the French version of Word 2004. It&#8217;s quite possible that it has been fixed. But why they haven&#8217;t also fixed it in the English version is beyond me, especially after all this time.</p>
<p>To be entirely fair, Apple&#8217;s own Pages also has a somewhat similar problem with <a href="http://www.betalogue.com/2005/02/07/pages-problem-with-non-breaking-space-line-spacing-and-type-1-fonts/" rel="nofollow">certain Type 1 fonts</a>. Only the symptoms in Pages are not as obvious, and they seem to only affect a subset of the category of Type 1 fonts (those that do not include a non-breaking space in their char set, I think). But it&#8217;s nearly as shameful for Apple as it is for Microsoft, especially since the symptoms have to do with line spacing and Apple has designed Pages as a page layout application. </p>
<p>Given that the problem also affects Pages in some way, I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if it were linked to an underlying cause in Mac OS X, and Microsoft just couldn&#8217;t be bothered to pressurize Apple to fix it.</p>
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		<title>By: Warren Beck</title>
		<link>http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/comment-page-1/#comment-6210</link>
		<dc:creator>Warren Beck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/#comment-6210</guid>
		<description>I think that it is extremely surprising that the non-breaking spaces bug with Postscript fonts is still broken.  This is a fundamental flaw, yet apparently most people are not bothered at all by the situation because they only use the TrueType fonts that are provided either with the operating system by Apple or by Microsoft when one installs Office.  

I&#039;ll admit that I no longer have a problem with this because I am more or less forced to use  Times New Roman or Ariel in my work (Chemistry) because the versions of these fonts that come with Office 2004 have unicode tiers for Greek letters (even in italic and boldface) that most other typefaces (even Verdana) lack.  I am not aware of any OpenType or oldstyle Postscript fonts with comparable features.  Now, in the days of Word v.X, one was forced to obtain greek letters for equations and math stuff in the main text from the so-called &quot;symbol&quot; fonts, such as Symbol and Adobe&#039;s Universal Greek or Math Pi.  

So, Pierre, I guess that the MacBU would tell us that the &quot;opportunity  cost&quot; of implementing proper support for OpenType and/or Postscript into Office 2004 at this point is just too high. I submit, however, that the MacBU didn&#039;t even test for proper compatibility prior to the original shipment of Office 2004, and now they don&#039;t care because, like it or not, only a few people actually use non-TrueType fonts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that it is extremely surprising that the non-breaking spaces bug with Postscript fonts is still broken.  This is a fundamental flaw, yet apparently most people are not bothered at all by the situation because they only use the TrueType fonts that are provided either with the operating system by Apple or by Microsoft when one installs Office.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll admit that I no longer have a problem with this because I am more or less forced to use  Times New Roman or Ariel in my work (Chemistry) because the versions of these fonts that come with Office 2004 have unicode tiers for Greek letters (even in italic and boldface) that most other typefaces (even Verdana) lack.  I am not aware of any OpenType or oldstyle Postscript fonts with comparable features.  Now, in the days of Word v.X, one was forced to obtain greek letters for equations and math stuff in the main text from the so-called &#8220;symbol&#8221; fonts, such as Symbol and Adobe&#8217;s Universal Greek or Math Pi.  </p>
<p>So, Pierre, I guess that the MacBU would tell us that the &#8220;opportunity  cost&#8221; of implementing proper support for OpenType and/or Postscript into Office 2004 at this point is just too high. I submit, however, that the MacBU didn&#8217;t even test for proper compatibility prior to the original shipment of Office 2004, and now they don&#8217;t care because, like it or not, only a few people actually use non-TrueType fonts.</p>
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		<title>By: ssp</title>
		<link>http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/comment-page-1/#comment-6209</link>
		<dc:creator>ssp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 18:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/#comment-6209</guid>
		<description>I guess you could have &#039;broken&#039; the localisation of the folder names by accidentally removing the .localized file inside them.

Yes, multi-linguality is tough. While the situation with it is better today than it ever was (thanks to Cocoa&#039;s relatively simple localisation techniques) it is still rather bleak. In particular as the technique of localising things is so simple now, we start seeing loads of rather bad localisations that make me want to use the English version instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess you could have &#8216;broken&#8217; the localisation of the folder names by accidentally removing the .localized file inside them.</p>
<p>Yes, multi-linguality is tough. While the situation with it is better today than it ever was (thanks to Cocoa&#8217;s relatively simple localisation techniques) it is still rather bleak. In particular as the technique of localising things is so simple now, we start seeing loads of rather bad localisations that make me want to use the English version instead.</p>
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		<title>By: Pierre Igot</title>
		<link>http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/comment-page-1/#comment-6208</link>
		<dc:creator>Pierre Igot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 18:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/#comment-6208</guid>
		<description>I wasn&#039;t sure about the folder name thing. I should have checked it. Indeed they are localized as well. I thought I remembered seeing them in English once even on a French system, but maybe my memory is playing tricks on me, or this was a problem in earlier versions of OS X that was addressed later on. Thanks for the clarification.

I certainly feel that my own &quot;bilingual&quot; situation is not all that unusual, especially not outside the U.S. There are many European and Asian companies these days who use not just the local language but also English in business communications, etc. In that respect, Microsoft is still far too U.S.-centric—although they are hardly alone in that department.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t sure about the folder name thing. I should have checked it. Indeed they are localized as well. I thought I remembered seeing them in English once even on a French system, but maybe my memory is playing tricks on me, or this was a problem in earlier versions of OS X that was addressed later on. Thanks for the clarification.</p>
<p>I certainly feel that my own &#8220;bilingual&#8221; situation is not all that unusual, especially not outside the U.S. There are many European and Asian companies these days who use not just the local language but also English in business communications, etc. In that respect, Microsoft is still far too U.S.-centric—although they are hardly alone in that department.</p>
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		<title>By: ssp</title>
		<link>http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/comment-page-1/#comment-6207</link>
		<dc:creator>ssp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:31:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betalogue.com/2006/06/20/erik-schwiebert-on-localized-versions-of-microsoft-office-for-mac-os-x/#comment-6207</guid>
		<description>Actually the names of the &#039;main folder hierarchy&#039; (by which I assume you refer to the Users and Applications folders) are displayed localised as well. The actual names of the folders on the hard drive are just in English anyway (so that the stupid Unix underpinnings don&#039;t break all the time I suppose) and just their names are localised in the UI according to your language preference.

---

When dealing with MS, I wonder how large those &#039;small&#039; groups of users are which require certain functions. With their complete market domination that should easily be many thousands if not millions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually the names of the &#8216;main folder hierarchy&#8217; (by which I assume you refer to the Users and Applications folders) are displayed localised as well. The actual names of the folders on the hard drive are just in English anyway (so that the stupid Unix underpinnings don&#8217;t break all the time I suppose) and just their names are localised in the UI according to your language preference.</p>
<p>&#8212;</p>
<p>When dealing with MS, I wonder how large those &#8217;small&#8217; groups of users are which require certain functions. With their complete market domination that should easily be many thousands if not millions.</p>
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